VOSA Emailed over Tank

[iank]

I briefly discussed this with Jason when we met up .... seriously considering putting the buggy through IVA as a single seater, with the passenger side occupied by a luggage compartment and tank, with filler exiting through the side to the outside of the buggy.  Then re-think afterwards, once I have the MAC in hand 

You need to be somewhat careful with that idea. If it goes through IVA (or indeed SVA) with only one seat it gets registered on the V5c as a single seater. Not sure if they will allow that to be changed without another inspection.  If you had a prang and the insurance company noticed more seats than the V5 then they will use the small print to avoid paying out.

Wondering at the moment about putting the fuel tank in the front of the car, i.e. the passenger footwell, but that's also a bit dodgy as the suspension tie rod would be likely to spear the tank in an accident unless it's very small.
Edit: bugger that won't work as the steering rack would have to penetrate the firewall somehow.

p.s. there's a guy on locostbuilders who makes custom alloy tanks to drawings for a lot less money than the big boys and has a good rep for quality.  Look up deneo
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthr ... ?tid=91248

Picture
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/photos. ... 009117.jpg

 

[mjb2205]

What about moving the battery and putting a small tank under the nose cone with radiused filler poking through the centre of the alley nose cone  similar to a vw beach buggy
Then after the test, fit a larger tank elsewhere
Its in its own compartment and if ruptured the contents will drain to the floor
No more vulnerable than a motorcycle tank which sits in your lap and on top of the engine

mike

Oops just noticed Angel boy beet me too it on the Alloy Tank post 

 

[HolyCount]

I briefly discussed this with Jason when we met up .... seriously considering putting the buggy through IVA as a single seater, with the passenger side occupied by a luggage compartment and tank, with filler exiting through the side to the outside of the buggy.  Then re-think afterwards, once I have the MAC in hand 

You need to be somewhat careful with that idea. If it goes through IVA (or indeed SVA) with only one seat it gets registered on the V5c as a single seater. Not sure if they will allow that to be changed without another inspection.  If you had a prang and the insurance company noticed more seats than the V5 then they will use the small print to avoid paying out.

Fair point Ian -- hadn't thought of that  :-[

 

[biddleboy]

well guys i think i mentioned this to Alan IE moving battery and fitting a nice tank there and putting the battery were you would put the fire extinguisher you have then got a nose cone to protect it and a bumper all so blitz to it in the front with most of there kits as mike said with a nice flush fitting lockable fuel cap on the nose cone

 

[HolyCount]

But will a blitz now make it through IVA with the tank being so vulnerable ?  I know some production models would -- and so would bikes -- but I think VOSA are harder on kits !!!!

 

[Phaeton]

Just remember that if you brought it over the front footwell above the pedalbox area then you would have to put an extra firewall underneath so any spillage/leakage would not end up in the passenger compartment.

Keep the ideas coming, we'll get there eventually.

Alan...

 

[HolyCount]

If you did put a half cylindrical tank tight up against the front bulhead ( having removed the battery box) with the curved face closely following the nose cone and extending as far as possible to each side ( but remaining within cover of the cone), any ideas what the capacity would be ?

If it's a go-er, we could run it by VOSA, with the filler caps as mentioned above and get the guy that Ian knows of to quote for a few.

 

[jason_l]

I had thought about putting it at the front but in a front impact its going to get nasty! 

What about having a dual layered tank??? almost like a tank within a tank, probably going to be big bucks im guessing but the outer tank acts like a firewall.

I think im going to just run a small tank behind the passenger seat now and then remove it and get it modified after IVA to extend it to drivers side.

That way im not paying for 2 tanks, more like one and a half tanks 

 

[Mini Mad Max]

Ah! That's it or at least i think it is.... You take your normal tank with the filler cap coming out into a shrowd etc. But for the firewall, make it out of vac forming or fibreglass, which can be easily produced for all you chappies so you don't have to do any horrible fabricating. If you just stick bits of wood onto the tank all round that are about 10mm thick, then make a mould or put it all together and pop it in a vac forming machine, then you get a 10mm even space all around the tank. Then make a gasket or seal for the floor and drill the wholes etc. I thought about filling the gap with builders foam, but then remembered it's flammable. As for the heat thing, put heat wrap on the exhaust and put some form of insulation on the bulkheads... no probs  ;D
Hope this helps....
Max

 

[iank]

I had thought about putting it at the front but in a front impact its going to get nasty! 

What about having a dual layered tank??? almost like a tank within a tank, probably going to be big bucks im guessing but the outer tank acts like a firewall.

Congratulations, you've invented the fuel cell, as used by serious motorsport (nascar, f1 etc)   though they use a flexible bladder for the inner tank for even more safety.
ATL being a big supplier http://www.atlinc.com/racing.html

I think im going to just run a small tank behind the passenger seat now and then remove it and get it modified after IVA to extend it to drivers side.

But you still have the problem of getting fuel into the thing without running a filler pipe through the engine or passenger compartment.

That way im not paying for 2 tanks, more like one and a half tanks 

A reasonable idea, but may have problems with the inspector not being happy.

 

[iank]

Ah! That's it or at least i think it is.... You take your normal tank with the filler cap coming out into a shrowd etc. But for the firewall, make it out of vac forming or fibreglass, which can be easily produced for all you chappies so you don't have to do any horrible fabricating. If you just stick bits of wood onto the tank all round that are about 10mm thick, then make a mould or put it all together and pop it in a vac forming machine, then you get a 10mm even space all around the tank. Then make a gasket or seal for the floor and drill the wholes etc. I thought about filling the gap with builders foam, but then remembered it's flammable. As for the heat thing, put heat wrap on the exhaust and put some form of insulation on the bulkheads... no probs  ;D
Hope this helps....
Max

Are you allowed to make firewalls from grp?  AFAIK you need special fire retardant resin else grp burns pretty well
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d-wzWaeh2U for a robin reliant demonstrating.

I was already planning to use a heatproof sheet between fuel tank and headers (and maybe wrapping them anyway), but with the costs of an IVA retest and the amount of re-engineering required to move the tank somewhere else (even if it's possible) I'd hoping for a quote from the man at VOSA to wave under a grumpy inspectors nose if necessary.

 

[Mini Mad Max]

Ahh hahaha, So many men try to tackle an innocent little reliant robin lol ;D
There are loads of fire proofing agents on the market though isn't there? ???
I just thought grp would be good as it has no seams and is easy to fabricate.
Max

 

[Angel Boy]

What about moving the battery and putting a small tank under the nose cone with radiused filler poking through the centre of the alley nose cone  similar to a vw beach buggy
Then after the test, fit a larger tank elsewhere
Its in its own compartment and if ruptured the contents will drain to the floor
No more vulnerable than a motorcycle tank which sits in your lap and on top of the engine

mike

Oops just noticed Angel boy beet me too it on the Alloy Tank post 

No worries, probably should have posted here.  It is definately getting the grey matter working on us all this one  :-\

A

 

[jason_l]

This is bloody pissin me off now, maybe its just the rum talking  ;D ;D ;D ;D :-[

Why the hell has this IVA got to be such an arse to pass!!!! They know fully well we are going to change it afterwards.

im not going to put anything in my car that is going to be life threatening, at the end of the day its me driving it so its my life at threat!

Maybe its worth emailing pictures of a freestyle buggy without a fuel tank and simply asking the question 'where and how can i mount a fuel tank in this car?'. Then we can have a answer from Vosa saying if you mount a fuel tank like this...... it will be acceptable, then we can go to IVA with the proof that it has been approved.


Anyway im going to find more rum............................ ;D

 

[Phaeton]

Right lads I have an idea, lets reinvent the wheel.

If the cap of this was tethered to the chassis & the fuel line went in the top rather than the bottom,  with another firewall put around it with drainage in the bottom doesn't this fulfil the requirements.



Alan...

 

[jason_l]

Right lads I have an idea, lets reinvent the wheel.

If the cap of this was tethered to the chassis & the fuel line went in the top rather than the bottom,  with another firewall put around it with drainage in the bottom doesn't this fulfil the requirements.



Alan...

Looks promising, could you get away with only a firewall between the tank and the engine? If there is a leak from the outer part of the tank then it will leak onto the floor, away from the engine.

Does the fuel line have to go into the top of the tank????

Jason

 

[iank]

Ahh hahaha, So many men try to tackle an innocent little reliant robin lol ;D
There are loads of fire proofing agents on the market though isn't there? ???
I just thought grp would be good as it has no seams and is easy to fabricate.
Max

It was a question really, I don't know what VOSA's view would be.  From a making and fitting point of view it seems an excellent idea

Maybe another question to the man at VOSA when he's digested the last lot :

 

[HolyCount]

what do you reckon the take would be on a toriodal LPG tank mounted on the spare wheel carrier ?

 

[Phaeton]

Does the fuel line have to go into the top of the tank????
Jason

Probably not, just less chance of a leak, it's not hard to put it in the top, bearing in mind you'll need 2 tank entries one high pressure flow the other low pressure return return.

Alan...

 

[Phaeton]

Response from VOSA, will be getting the images down to him ASAP, but not sure if this is good or bad news about the changes.

Alan...

Approvals
                                        Testing and Support Services (TaSS)
                                                                      VOSA,
                                                                   Ellipse,
                                                               Padley Road,
                                                                   Swansea,
                                                                   SA1 8AN.
Good afternoon Mr.Smith ,

Thank you for your enquiry which has been passed to me, due to my colleague
Mr Stephen Bardsley being involved in other projects. I have read the
previous correspondence regarding this matter, but unfortunately I am
unable to view the attached photographs.

It is worth pointing out at this point that the regulations surrounding the
requirements for fuel tanks are currently under review and as such I should
like to defer my answers to these points until I have received
clarification on the exact detail of any changes proposed. Once I have
received the exact details of any amendments, I will provide an answer
accordingly. In the interim, could you kindly provide the photographs in
jpeg format, to enable me to view the proposed design.

I can however, confirm that there is no stated minimum or maximum distance
between a fuel source and heat source in the regulations. This is due to
the objective nature of this particular element of the test. Obviously, if
an atomised fuel source (such as a fuel tank vent) was in close proximity
to an exhaust outlet, this would be viewed more seriously than a fuel tank
wall running near an exhaust pipe. Both elements of the equation
(flammability of liquid and expected temperature of the heat source) would
be examined to arrive at an objective decision.

I do hope this information is helpful, but should you have any further
questions, please do not hesitate to get in touch.

Best regards,

Mark

EDIT:- Just an update, had a call from mark as he is unable to view the links I have sent they have been banned from viewing Photobucket LOL. Some good news is the request for exemptions they put into the Dept Transport has come back, they are still not happy with the outcome & have challenged them again, he is hoping that a resolution will be made within the week. He also thinks a fire extinguisher is acceptable & is waiting to view the image of the one I posted earlier as to it's position. So here's hoping

Alan...