Tank

[HolyCount]

As a follow on to the discussion with VOSA re. the tank ..... Whilst fiddling about today, taking the last bits off a thought occured ( possibly the third this year  ;D ) .... how about siting the tank between the front wheels, in between the very front bulkhead and the front passenger compartment bulkhead ? It's between two fairly substantial bits of steel (passenger bulkhead would need a couple of holes patched (what passes through those? ) and it drains to the open road below, so no pooling. Filler could be routed up to the nose cone somehow as in the blitz.

In here is where I mean:

Something along these lines, the "shoulders" would sit on the cross members of the chassis:

Dimensions are rough and in cm --- anybody work out the capacity in gallons ?????  Or does anything else intrude upon this space?

 

[iank]

As a follow on to the discussion with VOSA re. the tank ..... Whilst fiddling about today, taking the last bits off a thought occured ( possibly the third this year  ;D ) .... how about siting the tank between the front wheels, in between the very front bulkhead and the front passenger compartment bulkhead ? It's between two fairly substantial bits of steel (passenger bulkhead would need a couple of holes patched (what passes through those? ) and it drains to the open road below, so no pooling. Filler could be routed up to the nose cone somehow as in the blitz.

In here is where I mean:

...

Something along these lines, the "shoulders" would sit on the cross members of the chassis:

...
Dimensions are rough and in cm --- anybody work out the capacity in gallons ?????  Or does anything else intrude upon this space?

For those measurements I get
((57 cm) * (11 cm) * (45 cm)) + ((7 cm) * (47 cm) * (11 cm)) = 31.83400 litres = 7.00249816 Imperial gallons

Not sure how you'd get it in and resting on those bits of steel though.
Try mocking it up in thick cardboard - it sounds like an interesting idea!

 

[HolyCount]

As a follow on to the discussion with VOSA re. the tank ..... Whilst fiddling about today, taking the last bits off a thought occured ( possibly the third this year  ;D ) .... how about siting the tank between the front wheels, in between the very front bulkhead and the front passenger compartment bulkhead ? It's between two fairly substantial bits of steel (passenger bulkhead would need a couple of holes patched (what passes through those? ) and it drains to the open road below, so no pooling. Filler could be routed up to the nose cone somehow as in the blitz.

In here is where I mean:

...

Something along these lines, the "shoulders" would sit on the cross members of the chassis:

...
Dimensions are rough and in cm --- anybody work out the capacity in gallons ?????  Or does anything else intrude upon this space?

For those measurements I get
((57 cm) * (11 cm) * (45 cm)) + ((7 cm) * (47 cm) * (11 cm)) = 31.83400 litres = 7.00249816 Imperial gallons

Not sure how you'd get it in and resting on those bits of steel though.
Try mocking it up in thick cardboard - it sounds like an interesting idea!

Good point -- didn't think of that -- got too excited !!!  Would have to lose the lower portion and just rest it on the chassis rails  :-[  Takes us down to 28 litres

 

[Phaeton]

The first circular hole you can see is to bring the front brake pipe through, but I'm sure that could be rerouted, the one over the far side is relief for the steering rack, which does protrude into that space.

I know it drops the capacity down to 26 litres but if you make the tank so it goes between the 2 angle plates & then make new mounting brackets to hold it in place it will be easier to install it from the bottom, rather than trying to slide it in from the side. It would also mean if you needed to take it back out again you wouldn't have to completely strip down the suspension at one side.

I think you're on to something, but at the moment I can't see anywhere for the filler to go & the route it would take.

Alan...

 

[Phaeton]

How about changing to coilovers on the front, Simon (Esdebe) has done this but used shocks the same length as the Mini. If you used slightly smaller one & moved the brackets out a bit you could get filler through the middle of the bulkhead & then through the nosecone. A bit like this bodged picture, the suspension brackets would need to be more substantial.

Alan...

 

[jason_l]

Looks like you may be on to something here Kev, I looked at that area several times and wondered what i could put in there but never really thought of the fuel tank.

Should help put a little more weight at the front of the car as well, which should help!  ;D

 

[iank]

Not sure how you'd get it in and resting on those bits of steel though.
Try mocking it up in thick cardboard - it sounds like an interesting idea!

Good point -- didn't think of that -- got too excited !!!  Would have to lose the lower portion and just rest it on the chassis rails  :-[  Takes us down to 28 litres

Only need to lose one of the 'shoulders' I think, that gives a little back, and possibly adds some scope for a filler on a 45 degree plate- poor drawing

 

[esdebe]

Looks promising,

The two holes on the passenger side, one for front brakes, the other for battery live

You may find a way to fit the filler in near the pivot point for the front shocks, but then you will have to either make it easy to remove the nose cover or put a filler into the nose cover itself.  Also ou will net ot ensure you don't weaken the pivot point too.  

Another option would be to extend one of the exiting top cutouts (under the springs) to go down the side a little then bring the filler up out of the side, but doing this you wouldn't be able to get the tank in or out...

It you were to change the front suspension completly you could use one of those cut outs with no issues but that is another major re-design you would need to do.

The other option would be to get a battery like one of the small "red top" one , house that in the space you have found then get a 1/2 drum shape tank and put the under the node where the batery was.  you could easily have the filler in the nose then, but I'm not sure how big you could get it, I think it would be more like    20 Litres... based on a 14cm radius and 47 cm wide, but this is based on the measurments you gave and I think there is more space than that....

 

[iank]

or following on from my drawing bring a solid tube out of that hole at 45 degrees and join it onto a flush filler cap on the nosecone.  Would need some way to get it all together.

Two questions, would IVA man require the front to become some kind of crush structure to protect the tank, and would the battery have to move to the back (or behind a seat) in order to move a source of sparks well away from the filler?
Time to spend some quality time with the manual.

A quick read through implies all would be ok under a plain reading of the words, would be wise to have the filler on the earth side of the battery I guess.

 

[Mini Mad Max]

Yeah if you moved the battery somewhere else and make the filler neck come out of the lower nose cone (the alluminium one) and be flush with it. I wouldn't want a battery near my tank anyway! lol. Good idea as it would send more weight to the front of the buggy, which is quite good to get a good balance in the buggy!
Max

 

[Mini Mad Max]

here is a pic to back me up:

Max

 

[HolyCount]

Losing the battery to the rear (smaller battery in where the old extinguisher would have gone, maybe) would be a way to go -- the problem with a filler that exits to the front though is a) you would have to cut out a slot from the base of the front bulkhead to raise the tank into place from beneath and b) this would severely weaken the structure. Alternatively I guess we could put a screw thread in the tank so that we can screw on the filler neck once the tank has been slid into place  :-\

Having a semi-cylinder where the battery now sits would lose the protection of the front bulkhead to the tank -- might be a little too vulnerable out there.

Bit more thought needed here I guess -- but we are making progress  We have a decent sized tank sited -- now... how to get it filled  ???

Keep the thoughts coming  -- this is the first decent idea I have had this year -- don't let it die  ;D :

 

[iank]

Timeout gentlemen.

Unless your buggy is a significantly different shape to mine your measurements are out.  I agree with them all except the
45cm vertical.  On my buggy it's 22cm from top to bottom, so this measurement would be 15cm - just been out and measured.

So assuming one shoulder can be retained that gives a volume of:

((52 cm) * (22 cm) * (11 cm)) - ((7 cm) * (5 cm) * (11 cm)) = 12.19900 litres =  2.68340375 Imperial gallons

Not big enough I'm afraid

 

[HolyCount]

Timeout gentlemen.

Unless your buggy is a significantly different shape to mine your measurements are out.  I agree with them all except the
45cm vertical.  On my buggy it's 22cm from top to bottom, so this measurement would be 15cm - just been out and measured.

So assuming one shoulder can be retained that gives a volume of:

((52 cm) * (22 cm) * (11 cm)) - ((7 cm) * (5 cm) * (11 cm)) = 12.19900 litres =  2.68340375 Imperial gallons

Not big enough I'm afraid

Darn -- you might be right -- my measurements would make the thing almost  square from the front -- which it plainly isn't --- that's what happens when runnimng in from the garage trying to remember the dimensions -- teach me to take paper and pencil next time ---- sorry folks  :-[ :-[ :-[

There goes my only idea this year -- back to the drawing board !!!!

 

[iank]

Timeout gentlemen.

Unless your buggy is a significantly different shape to mine your measurements are out.  I agree with them all except the
45cm vertical.  On my buggy it's 22cm from top to bottom, so this measurement would be 15cm - just been out and measured.

So assuming one shoulder can be retained that gives a volume of:

((52 cm) * (22 cm) * (11 cm)) - ((7 cm) * (5 cm) * (11 cm)) = 12.19900 litres =  2.68340375 Imperial gallons

Not big enough I'm afraid

Darn -- you might be right -- my measurements would make the thing almost  square from the front -- which it plainly isn't --- that's what happens when runnimng in from the garage trying to remember the dimensions -- teach me to take paper and pencil next time ---- sorry folks  :-[ :-[ :-[

There goes my only idea this year -- back to the drawing board !!!!

Ok, I was being a little harsh there - it still is a good idea and 2.5 gallons is anything up to 100miles of range (depending on how you use it and the engine you're using) - not a long distance 'holiday to the south of France' machine, but for a weekend toy probably fine.

What you could do is have your tank in the nose for IVA purposes and as the regular tank, and then either carry a 20litre jerry can, have a fire extinguisher tank in the 'boot' as has been done forever in the freestyle quite safely (IMO) or a behind the seat tank(s) fitted after the test.

Here's an idea - you must be allowed an injection swirl pot in the engine bay as I've heard no complaints from the locosters in that regard, so instead of the usual 1litre model have a 20-30 litre one - no filler to worry about - but filling will be a pain as you'll need to put in 12 litres and run the low pressure pump for a while to transfer it into the 'swirl pot' and then fill up again, repeat twice and you'll have 32-42 litres on board for a longer trip - I can imagine the complaints from the garage mind - so probably better to have a 'proper' tank with a filler back there.

 

[iank]

...I wouldn't want a battery near my tank anyway! lol. ...
Max

Never had a mini then?  ;D 
We'd be better than that as we'd have a thick steel bulkhead between tank and battery, and it's all out in the open so fumes won't build up.
From a weight point of view you really want to keep the battery at the front as the tank will only be around 14kg full and when empty 2kg (a lot less than currently).

More I think about it, the more I think it's a good idea if we can solve the filling problems (and the routing a fuel pipe through the cabin issue)

 

[HolyCount]

As mentioned in your earlier post iank, the now smaller tank still has a better capacity then the extinguisher -- so all is not lost !

 

[Angel Boy]

Why not create the same cavity we are talking about again ahead of the area where the suspension parts are?  I know that leaves the gap which is just begining to be filled but the routing of the filler is a problem.  If you just create a new cavity it will be easier to install the tank and easier to route a filling point too.  Makes the front end a little longer but doesn't drastically alter the shape.

Thoughts?  Or am I talking out my peaches again?

Andy

 

[iank]

OK, to kick off some more discussion I've spent 30mins getting a first idea for a tank into CAD.

The filler is very provisional, I haven't mocked it up to see if it could clear the suspension.
It would lift vertically through the hole (I think - not measured to make sure it's in exactly the right place.
pipes are breather and injection return (for those that need injection pipework - would be blanked for carbs) with the outlet coming out of the middle front (need a M10 hole drilled and slotted out for fitting - seemed the easiest way.

Mounting is by tabs front and back at the bottom (not sure about these yet - might be better with straps.

Lots of detail decisions and a cardboard mockup still to be made.

Thoughts?

 

[HolyCount]

Excellent work !  As you mention, the dodgy bit is the filler. Would be OK if converted to coil over with a central filler, as suggested by Alan -- but TBH I would rather try to keep the front end standard, so that the same tank design could be used by all of us (and maybe we could get them fabricated in bulk to save a little on costs).

It could be that the filler might come out at a steeper angle to clear the shocks, which would be OK as we will use a flexi pipe from the tank top to the eventual filler cap site.

What are the stipulations regarding the fuel line routing back to the engine ?

Is there a sender unit that can be mounted through the end wall of the tank -- all units I can think of go in the side, so that the float arm is at right angles to the unit as opposed to sticking out in front of it --- if you see what I mean  ???