Possible new spec engine swap? thought i'd ask existing builders

[sirdiesel]

Not yet got my kit, but am at the ideas stage.. my plan (at the mo) is to build up a mini engine'd car then get a spare subframe and try to fit something else, perhaps something more modern as i want fuel economy for range and cheapness, but don't really want to sacrifice power

Just had a run down to the 24hr shop in my girl's aygo, first time i've driven it.. pretty impressed overall, to say it's a 1.0 3cyl.. which got me thinking, checked up the tech specs on the aygo/107/c1 (same car) and it's got about 20% more bhp and torque than a mini A 1000.. not to mention the fuel consumption or rather lack thereof..

Just got me thinking is all.. modern reliability, economy, power.. possibly a lighter engine being a 3cyl? these cars are selling like hot cakes around here, won't be long before there's a smashed example in the breakers, saw a really tonked c1 the other week in fact.

Hadn't really considered this engine, but it's a sweet little lump even in the aygo, should be quite small too, easy to fit?  Just wondered what you guys thought? i don't trust my 5am thoughts even though some are genius, so i could either have stumbled on a really good idea or lost the plot entirely... 

 

[jason_l]

Not yet got my kit, but am at the ideas stage.. my plan (at the mo) is to build up a mini engine'd car then get a spare subframe and try to fit something else, perhaps something more modern as i want fuel economy for range and cheapness, but don't really want to sacrifice power

Just had a run down to the 24hr shop in my girl's aygo, first time i've driven it.. pretty impressed overall, to say it's a 1.0 3cyl.. which got me thinking, checked up the tech specs on the aygo/107/c1 (same car) and it's got about 20% more bhp and torque than a mini A 1000.. not to mention the fuel consumption or rather lack thereof..

Just got me thinking is all.. modern reliability, economy, power.. possibly a lighter engine being a 3cyl? these cars are selling like hot cakes around here, won't be long before there's a smashed example in the breakers, saw a really tonked c1 the other week in fact.

Hadn't really considered this engine, but it's a sweet little lump even in the aygo, should be quite small too, easy to fit?  Just wondered what you guys thought? i don't trust my 5am thoughts even though some are genius, so i could either have stumbled on a really good idea or lost the plot entirely... 

Sounds interesting to me, in fact i had originally thought about it when considering engine choices. Should be relatively small engine and should in theory go in the subframe with room to spare.

The thing that put me off of it is that if i was going to spend the money getting a newer engine with more power than for cheaper money i could have a slightly older engine with ALOT more power. Hence why i settled on the Starlet GT engine, although it is relatively big. The fuel economy isn't hi on my list hence why i went for this.

I will speak to the guy modifying my freestyle this saturday for the starlet engine, he is a GOD when it comes to Toyota engines and he maybe able to say a few words.

Jason

 

[Phaeton]

Things that will make the change easier is hydraulic clutch & cable gear change, however I'm currently cutting up a subframe to try to fit a K-series with cable clutch & rod change!

Somewhere there is a long sprawling thread about engine changes with most of the options covered. I too am not a friend of the A-series, in 1958 it was a good idea, but things move on.

I really think it comes down to how you want to do the conversion 1) cut up the A-series subframe to fit another engine into it, difficult but have been done many times in a Mini but with different priorities, or 2) Only use the rear bulkhead forward rm a Freestyle & completely build a new backend on it.

In some respects 2 could be the easier solution, if you can find another FWD car, with MacPherson strut type suspension, with similar track to a Mini, If I had a big enough garage I think that's the way i would go, but when complete whether you can call it a Freestyle is an another arguement.

Alan...

 

[sirdiesel]

I like the A-series.. it's reasonably reliable, tunable, easy to work on, and available cheaply in numbers.. in the 50s it must have been stunningly good but in 2009 it isn't sufficiently good enough at anything to make it a permanent fixture in my vehicle if something better can be fitted. Would love an engine with a LOT of extra power like the starlet lump or a tuned 4AGE mr2 etc but.. never really owned anything with the kind of power:weight ratio of a freestyle with such an engine (although i have owned and driven quick cars) so 60ish bhp is going to be enough for me lol

As for the fitting, i'm pretty good with a MIG but wouldn't feel confident thrashing a car with a subframe I have chopped up, significantly altered, and then rewelded - i'll happily weld a bracket on or do a repair but don't know enough engineering to be confident that the custom, finished article is strong enough. Guess I'm a born mechanic/fitter rather than an engineer  :'(

Thinking about getting the subframe work (& fitting of the bare engine) done - at least it'll mean the subframe is strong enough and the engine is in straight, i'll probably do the rest ie: clutch, gearshift, throttle etc myself. Definitely would be thinking more option 1 for ease of parts replacement. Jason, ta for offering to talk to that dude, probably get him to do the work if/when.. definitely interested in what he has to say. Talked to some people i know in the LPG trade and aparently the aygo engine can be converted (DIY) to LPG for about £550. As i intend to do many tens of thousands of miles in my kit (aiming for at least the 100,000 mile trophy) it'll repay the cost.

e2a: anyone know the law on tax brackets? What'd be the tax bracket of a freestyle with a modern engine? old style fixed rate or variable based on emissions?

 

[jason_l]

I like the A-series.. it's reasonably reliable, tunable, easy to work on, and available cheaply in numbers.. in the 50s it must have been stunningly good but in 2009 it isn't sufficiently good enough at anything to make it a permanent fixture in my vehicle if something better can be fitted. Would love an engine with a LOT of extra power like the starlet lump or a tuned 4AGE mr2 etc but.. never really owned anything with the kind of power:weight ratio of a freestyle with such an engine (although i have owned and driven quick cars) so 60ish bhp is going to be enough for me lol

As for the fitting, i'm pretty good with a MIG but wouldn't feel confident thrashing a car with a subframe I have chopped up, significantly altered, and then rewelded - i'll happily weld a bracket on or do a repair but don't know enough engineering to be confident that the custom, finished article is strong enough. Guess I'm a born mechanic/fitter rather than an engineer  :'(

Thinking about getting the subframe work (& fitting of the bare engine) done - at least it'll mean the subframe is strong enough and the engine is in straight, i'll probably do the rest ie: clutch, gearshift, throttle etc myself. Definitely would be thinking more option 1 for ease of parts replacement. Jason, ta for offering to talk to that dude, probably get him to do the work if/when.. definitely interested in what he has to say. Talked to some people i know in the LPG trade and aparently the aygo engine can be converted (DIY) to LPG for about £550. As i intend to do many tens of thousands of miles in my kit (aiming for at least the 100,000 mile trophy) it'll repay the cost.

e2a: anyone know the law on tax brackets? What'd be the tax bracket of a freestyle with a modern engine? old style fixed rate or variable based on emissions?

Will speak to him on Saturday about fitting the Aygo engine, he says getting the starlet engine in mine will be EASY as there is no panels around it etc. He has fitted a mr2 engine into a lexus is200 with no problems and even an mr2 engine into a starlet  so he knows what he is doing.

As per tax brackets, after 2001 all cars had an emissions report from manufacture so if the engine is 2001 onwards it will be in the new tax laws and done on emissions! My other car is a 2000 Lexus is200 (really bad emissions) but because my car is a 2000 reg it is on the old tax bracket, cars built from 2001 with the same engine have the larger tax bracket. My tax is £185, however if the car was a year older with the same engine it would be about £400!!!! even though its the same car, same engine etc

With the Aygo though i think its such a small, clean engine that you will be better off on the new tax system than the old one and will be paying hardly any tax.

Jason

 

[jason_l]

Just done a little search on web and the tax bracket for the Aygo 1.0 litre is £35 a year!  ;D ;D ;D

 

[iank]

One engine to consider, well at least I am , is the 1300 Nissan Micra.
Very small and fits into a mini subframe with minimal cutting/welding required - at least compared to a K series.
They make around 100bhp when fitted with a decent exhaust, when turbo'ed they can apparently take 200bhp before going pop (pinch of salt required, but that's the internet, who knows they might be right).

This thread over on the mini forum has a lot of pictures of the subframe mods and brackets required.

http://www.theminiforum.co.uk/forums/in ... opic=57644

 

[sirdiesel]

YES!!! that's what i wanted to hear! 35 quid a year tax  ;D

just hope it ends up being decently quick. I shall be annoyed if it is not. Micra engine is a good idea, they just don't seem to break.. another possibility, yaris 1.3.. those are great engines.

 

[jason_l]

YES!!! that's what i wanted to hear! 35 quid a year tax  ;D

just hope it ends up being decently quick. I shall be annoyed if it is not. Micra engine is a good idea, they just don't seem to break.. another possibility, yaris 1.3.. those are great engines.

I think the Aygo engine would be quick enough, plus you will be able to get a little more out of it with a bit of tunning. Yaris 1.3 would also be good but again Tax wouldn't be as cheap.

The starlet engine im using is on the old tax system and is £130 a year  :'( plus my lex is £190  :'( So £35 is just a complete bargain!!!!!

 

[sirdiesel]

I don't object to road tax per se, but i DO object strongly to paying more because i choose to split my miles between vehicles, to pick the best vehicle for the job.. i like to have a 4x4/load lugger/7+ seater, an ecowagon, something fun, and a small motorbike.

So i've got a '68 land rover 109 2.5 petrol on lpg.. got a ka which has been my ecowagon, but i'm hoping to combine eco and fun in a freestyle, get rid of the ka, and keep my modern 125 (innova) engine'd (140mpg+) '72 c90.. when i got the landie, i didn't want to pay ANOTHER tax bill for a vehicle i ain't using often although i really wanted a hilux.. then rebuilt the landie, and felt the almost sexual pleasure of going into a post office and saying "can i have my free tax disc please?"... and started looking critically at my (long kept, much loved, very tuned) maestro turbo, and the old cavalier TD mile-eater.. and my old DT125 because of all the bills..

many tears, tantrums, flailings, whippings, self-destruction of resistance and a lot more tears later i parted with my beloved mog, flogged the cav.. swapped the kwak for the c90.. just got the landie running nice and all finished, sold the zuki project i was working on recently, finished the engine conversion on the bike.. so i'm looking for something else to do to further rationalise and enhance my collection. the ka, is after all on borrowed time as a 1999 on its original, 91000 (mostly town, mostly hard use) mile clutch, bangy suspension, and shell that needed a new sill and some floor welding for its last MOT.

then i just happened to google for sand rail/dune buggy, always liked them, thought they were the coolest thing since absolute zero, always liked kit cars, the cars, the concept of recycling an old normal car to get something very cool, although i always looked at lotus 7s, fisher furys etc.. and found muddybuggies, saw the freestyle kit... found my new car lol
e2a: i particularly like the roof boxes some people have. I plan to go on a trip around europe and possibly further, was going to do it on the c90 but i think on the whole, a freestyle would be much better, and i can get STUFF in a topbox ;D (and it looks like it might work as a bit of a roof lol)

 

[Asbo]

i'm probly gonna put an MR2,4age into mine next year. running it with the mini lump till then tho,hoping it'll pass mot on tuesday. :

 

[sirdiesel]

great engines them 4age's, seen 400bhp (reliable and drivable) from one, heard reports of 800-900 bhp dyno queens/occasional racers in japan. Truely a "how full is your bank account" engine if you start modding, sky's the limit (literally)..but it's a sweet engine in standard form.

Maybe i'll fit a larger lump to mine at some point.. would be cool to shoehorn a VW 1.4 TSI or similar in there 

edit: just come across a stumbling point.. I do not want a Q  plate on my car,but I do want the cheaper tax bracket. Don't know the rules, my first build of a kit. Could i use the V5 from the donor mini, IVA it, get age related plates, then at a later date change the engine to an aygo engine - which has the emissions report - and change its tax bracket?

Or would I have to have an indeterminate age Q upon changing/right from the start to get the cheaper bracket? Is it the engine that determines the bracket or is that irrelevant for an age related vehicle? or can you take a Q then put a random, cheap private plate on it later? in previous years, i liked Q, unusual..but..nah i want a normal letter, or even a pre-reg plate as private

 

[Phaeton]

i'm probly gonna put an MR2,4age into mine next year. running it with the mini lump till then tho,hoping it'll pass mot on tuesday. :

You might like this post over on 16V Mini's shows the subframe & how it's been hacked about. Only concern I can see is how far forward it is, they have used an extended Clubman front to hide it, unfortunately you don't have that option to extend.

Alan...

 

[jason_l]

Jason, ta for offering to talk to that dude, probably get him to do the work if/when.. definitely interested in what he has to say.

When i dropped the car off yesterday i mentioned that another member was looking at a Aygo engine or possibly a Yaris engine.

He said either one won't be a problem and will be easily achieved, once he has done mine he will have a better idea of whats involved etc.

One thing he did say was that although he would be happy to do the work and its more than in his capabilities, he wouldn't be that enthusiastic about doing it. He is used to very high powered cars, he has a few 800+ HP supra's there, plus my brothers 700 HP mr2 and several 250+ HP starlets.

I have his phone number/email if you want to speak to him directly? He's a nice guy

Jason

 

[sirdiesel]

well there's no point getting him thinking further of it till i have the stuff.. which is going to take a while.. but ya man i could take his email and save it for closer to the time,ta very muchly

not enthusiastic about doing it? that's no way to run a railroad.. will have to convince him that it will require work of his quality to satisfy this customer  that is, if i can't find someone who is enthusiastic to do it and can do the work well.

 

[Asbo]

as a by the way.....if anyone looking for a smashed/salvage/repo/(police-related)/car.....give me a shout before buying off e-blag or wotever? my boss has loadsa stuff for sale,often at the cost of him clearing his recovery charges.yard is in glasgow tho,might cost a bit in transport,so keep that in mind. :

 

[iank]

Just had a memory from a long time ago on the Aygo transplant.  Did some checking and it's the same engine as the Daihatsu Sirion. and that has been transplanted into a mini in Australia.
Quick google and here's some selected links - do a search for Sirion on the forum and it throws up a lot of hits.

http://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14510
http://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17068
http://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18066

 

[Phaeton]

With V5C FLEECEBAY

Alan...

 

[iank]

Another possible is the 1108cc Fiat F.I.R.E engine from a Cinquicento or Seicento.
Has the advantage of a cable change gearbox and being very small.  Any reasons why we don't think they'd fit the back of a buggy with a suitably mucked around with subframe?

edited for spelin

 

[Phaeton]

Any reasons why we don't think they'd fit the back of a buggy with a suitably mucked around with subframe?

Great little engine, had several 2x Panda's & 3x Cinq's I think the only reason they have not been in the frame is because the Blitz already has then & we like to be different  ;D

Alan...