Possible new spec engine swap? thought i'd ask existing builders

[iank]

Any reasons why we don't think they'd fit the back of a buggy with a suitably mucked around with subframe?

Great little engine, had several 2x Panda's & 3x Cinq's I think the only reason they have not been in the frame is because the Blitz already has then & we like to be different  ;D

Alan...

Grin, but they also use the A-series
I was (am really) considering the Nissan Micra engine, but the gearbox is rod and cable clutch which is such a pain on the buggy.  Cable change is good as you can run the cables over the engine and increase ground clearance, am I right in thinking the cinq has a cable clutch?  Wonder if there's anything handy to mount a hydro slave onto...

 

[Phaeton]

Yep clutch is definitely cable, it's one of the weaknesses of it, it uses a rod much like the old buggy pedalbox to get to the passenger side where it picks up the standard cable.

Alan...

 

[sirdiesel]

Aye the old FIRE engines from fiats.. great engines them.. when my friends laughed at me for having a panda, i took them offroading in it (4x4 model) and showed them the receipt for it's £150 purchase price.. they didn't laugh anymore, that car's still going on my aunt's farm as a farm vehicle, with the back boarded, but it was great fun while i had it, as was the fwd one i got given as payment for some work last year. ragging it about in the snow was the funniest thing i've done in years.

I have to admit, i like the blitz 1's use of the fiat 126 engine very much. I'm all for small, simple low maintenance engines, also like the 2cv based kit cars but they're not a body style i like.. but the blitz is only a 1 seater, i'm 26, need to be able to take my girl(s?) out for spins.

On the subject of small engines.. Old ford Kent engines, 1.1-1.4, heard of some MAD power on the 1.4CVH too. Fiat uno turbo engine if you can find one that still runs? R5 GTT engine for insanity.. 300+ bhp freestyle anyone?  

 

[sirdiesel]

It just hit me in one of those "wake up EUREKA" moments.. the thought woke me up at 420am 

the prob with engine swaps in this vehicle is the mini's gearbox arrangement.. means that engines without it are bigger with box added.. i reference Jason's GT build probs.. extending the frame a foot on each side indeed.. rather too much work for me, that.. not saying it isnt a very cool swap, cos it is but i'm lazy AND tight.. lol

just had a look at those links brilliantly provided by IanK - SIRION ENGINE 50KG LIGHTER than 998cc mini.. and i bet the aygo/c1/107 version is yet lighter.. is a small engine... looks to me like it fits quite easy on the mini frame..

I've been reconsidering the wisdom of doing such a swap after further contemplation of the cost and hassle involved.. gonna have to do pros, cons

Pro: more mpg, less weight, more power, better weight distribution(?) Less maintenance? the Ka's engine has done nearly 100k miles and never once broken down, with nothing more than fluids, filters, plugs, and a battery and it is STILL sweet as a nut even though i've thrashed the hell out of it - modern engines seem to be really good for less maintenance (particularly chain drive ones), more reliability.. and if something does go wrong, its usually an easily changed sensor like a crank sensor or airflow meter.. Cheaper tax with a 1.0 3cyl.. sounds better (imo) than the frankly quite clattery A series (although that clatter does have its charms), more refined.. more reliable as it'd be a low mile engine.. easy to find replacement parts - these cars are v.popular. Easy to tune - just get the ecu flashed if it don't like a mod

Cons: Cost, work involved  to do it... fact i've got electronics to diagnose if something does go wrong although i should be able to just run it to a toyota/peugeot/citroen garage and plug it into their diagnostic machine.. LPG conversion is £100 more on an EFI than a carb lump.. cost of some replacement parts like injectors..

The drawbacks are serious ones.. but so are the benefits.. hmm more thought needed.. have considered asking mini tuners to do the subframe mods, rather than toyota dudes..

 

[jason_l]

Firstly mine is only going a foot wider total, not either side 

It all depends what you want out of the kit, i wanted something completely different that nobody else has. I know the freestyle is rare as fook in standard form but i wanted more power and something more individual. I could have spent thousands getting the mini engine up to more BHP but it works out cheaper to do all this work and have the starlet engine in.

like most the buggy won't get used much but when i do get to use it i want it to be completely insane! Plus im hoping to compete next year in some time trials/ hill climbs so want to get the handling and power correct. Extending the frmae should help with this and balance the car out more.

I don't think you would need to modify the subframe much to fit the aygo engine in but im not certain. The starlet engine is phisically alot bigger than the mini one. They could have got it in the car without extending the subframe but they said that it would be sooooo tight and the driveshafts would be at such a bad angle that it would casue problems.

I was thinking about this the other day and personally think the Aygo engine would be a good little choice.

Jason

 

[jason_l]

here is a great site that i was shown over on Lexus owners club...........


http://www.u-pull-it.co.uk/home.html

Its basically a scrap yard but you buy a time slot for a set amount and choose a car. Whatever you pull off the car in the set time you keep! They have to remove the engine and you pay them to do it but its a good price.

eg: yaris time slot, £200 plus £40 to remove engine/gearbox. So for £240 plus vat you have a engine and gearbox and then you still have 7 hours to remove as much as you can. You could easily make your money back on the parts you didn't want and your left with all the parts you need for almost nothing!!!!!!!

Did do a search for the Aygo and nothing yet................... ;D

 

[iank]

here is a great site that i was shown over on Lexus owners club...........


http://www.u-pull-it.co.uk/home.html

Its basically a scrap yard but you buy a time slot for a set amount and choose a car. Whatever you pull off the car in the set time you keep! They have to remove the engine and you pay them to do it but its a good price.

eg: yaris time slot, £200 plus £40 to remove engine/gearbox. So for £240 plus vat you have a engine and gearbox and then you still have 7 hours to remove as much as you can. You could easily make your money back on the parts you didn't want and your left with all the parts you need for almost nothing!!!!!!!

Did do a search for the Aygo and nothing yet................... ;D

I've seen that place before - not close to me unfortunately as it sounds interesting, it is quite expensive unless you manage to really strip it to nothing.  Good if you have no room for a donor on the drive for a week or two.

Things to watch
No angle grinders/sabre saws allowed - that really slows down the process - can't just lop the wings off to get access to everything.

No power, so only battery tools - need some spare batteries if you take a drill.  You can get battery powered impact wrenches but they cost.  On the positive side you shouldn't be wrestling with nightmare "blob'o'rust" bolts like mini donors.

Don't get the battery unless you pay extra and don't get the cat - that's a real shame as your donor will be newer than 95 so you'll need one for IVA.

Factor in Van hire if you don't have access and are 'going for it' and take some mates.

 

[sirdiesel]

Aye you're right about what i want out of the kit..

I want something reliable, that i can service and nurture, but will not let me down when i need it. I want fuel economy (cheapness to run), tbh paramount over everything else - this project sprung up out of my plan to rationalise my collection.. I wish to have cool vehicles that cost me little to run - worked it out it costs somewhere between 3 and 4 thousand quid to do 10k miles in a normal road car.. the freestyle will like as not be daily driven.. eventually, my daily drivers will be it, and a small motorbike, either my cub, or an engine swapped DT50mx. Other than that i'll only have the landie.. which'll never be economical although it isn't bad on running costs being a pre-1973... I have access to she who must be obeyed's new suzuki splash (vauxhall agila) which isn't a bad car.. so i'm none too bothered about the open nature of the freestyle, and its other drawbacks such as lack of luggage space etc

As for power, not really bothered too much about that - as long as it's as quick as like a mk2 XR2 and handles good it'll be enough.. hell as long as it beats the Ka it'll be enough - the ka is a pretty fun car despite being quite slow. I gather that the freestyle is heaps of fun even with a 998cc mini engine.. don't really need much more than that, especially as i really do have a right foot made of lead.. can't be losing my licence (again). I ain't spending loads of cash tuning up an engine that won't be great on economy or reliability, when like you say its probably cheaper and is certainly better just to fit a more modern engine.

I'd like to look into the possibility of keeping the aygo/107/c1 braking system as it has ABS, EBD etc.. not sure that'll be possible with the servo or mini hubs but it's def something to look at. Like all kit cars, any real mechanical mehs come from the donor vehicle.. this i wish to fix. I'll have a look at that u-pull-it site but i think i'll probably be going down the complete donor route.

 

[jason_l]

Sounds to me like its a go-er for the Aygo engine then. 

I weighed up all the options when going for a different engine and as performance is what im after then the mini lump just had to go!

Im guessing the only thing holding you back is the extra work/money and the uncertanty of if the engine will fit?

Everything is possible, the only limitations are money to be honest. I didn't expect the subframe on mine would need this extra work but will be worth it in the end, or at least i hope so!

Jason

 

[iank]

Might be a bit more (a lot more) than you want to spend but this is the perfect Aygo donor in some respects.

http://www.ne-motorsalvage.co.uk/pages/ ... TA&value2=%&value3=salvage&value4=MakeModel&value5=0&page_type=&mode=detail&ID=121376

 

[iank]

Same site, they are breaking this one, so you can enquire about engine/gearbox etc.  Only 400miles on this one

http://www.ne-motorsalvage.co.uk/pages/ ... TA&value2=%&value3=breakers&value4=MakeModel&value5=0&page_type=&mode=detail&ID=120620

So two identical 08 Aygo's in the same scrapyard, both rolled one with 400miles, one with 2500miles.  Methinks they're a bit unstable in the corners.

 

[sirdiesel]

My neighbour got an aygo black as a courtesy car when his corolla had an ecu fail..  i had a quick run in it, it's what made me think "hmm i wonder if this engine'll go in.." - pretty nice car really.. asks you to prod it though.. like hot hatches.. tis the multivalve nature of the engine methinks. Added to that the small wheelbase and track width coupled with them being relatively tall.. yeah it probably is a bit unstable if you push it or if there's a dodgy road surface on the corner - these cars are cheap enough, and cheap enough to insure.. and cool enough that (oh god i'm not about to say youngsters am i?) young and inexperienced drivers are buying them up - my buddy's 17 y/o brother just got a brand new one bought for him, the lucky <expletive deleted> my first car i had to make do with 40 quid's worth of 1100 fiesta on n '87 D... <many expletives deleted, wouldn't mind if he was a decent fella, he's a spoilt ****>

£2950 for a rolled car thats only 7 grand from the showroom? they're having a turkish, as Mike Brewer would probably say. Yeah it's probably reparable but will cost the difference between £3k and a new one just to fix it.. even if you can get a new bloody roof skin for it.. in fact i'm tempted to email them to tell them so. I'll pick my donor up cheaper than that I promise you.

Definitely going for the complete donor option.. when I put a leather interior and a few other bits from the Ka 3 Luxury on to my Ka 2 "Collection" - the one that came in copper, or lime green, mine's the copper - i did exactly that.. and sold the rest of the parts of the rearended luxury for more than i paid for the vehicle in the first place. That's what Ebay and owners forums were graciously provided to us by the elders of the internet for.

now i've just got to save up a few grand for a freestyle kit.. not easy as i'm skint AND helping to pay for the aforementioned Suzuki.

 

[jason_l]

now i've just got to save up a few grand for a freestyle kit.. not easy as i'm skint AND helping to pay for the aforementioned Suzuki.

and that will be your next problem, getting hold of a Freestyle kit!

 

[sirdiesel]

lol, probably.. they're not easy to find.. but not that expensive to order new?

i'm actually going to view a part built sylva riot kit tomorrow.. not really what i'm after but its cheap, could be an opportunity there..

 

[jason_l]

lol, probably.. they're not easy to find.. but not that expensive to order new?

i'm actually going to view a part built sylva riot kit tomorrow.. not really what i'm after but its cheap, could be an opportunity there..

Not too sure if Dave is making them anymore mate, hence why i said you might have trouble getting one! Only option i believe is a second hand kit! 

 

[Phaeton]

i'm actually going to view a part built sylva riot kit tomorrow.. not really what i'm after but its cheap, could be an opportunity there..

If I were to go down road only kitcar then the Riot assuming it's got a proper engine & not a bike engine in would be very very high on the list, in fact so high there wouldn't be anything above it. Would be interested in what you define as cheap, although I suspect my version of cheap will be less.

Alan...

 

[iank]

Yep clutch is definitely cable, it's one of the weaknesses of it, it uses a rod much like the old buggy pedalbox to get to the passenger side where it picks up the standard cable.

Alan...

Thanks for that Alan,
As luck/fate/random vibration of the universe would have it we got a flyer through the door from a FIAT/ALFA used parts/breaker/dealer in my village (little industrial estate I've never been down 100yards from my kids school)
So it looks like 1108cc of brute Italian power for my buggy is on the cards

Anyone want a free 998cc engine+gearbox? (+V5 etc if you want it).  Collection from Newcastle.  Was running when I got the mini and it's got reasonable bores (needs a damn good clean, head gasket, distributor+electrics, starter and alternator - iirc)

 

[sirdiesel]

i'm actually going to view a part built sylva riot kit tomorrow.. not really what i'm after but its cheap, could be an opportunity there..

If I were to go down road only kitcar then the Riot assuming it's got a proper engine & not a bike engine in would be very very high on the list, in fact so high there wouldn't be anything above it. Would be interested in what you define as cheap, although I suspect my version of cheap will be less.

Alan...

er.. yeah, went to have a look at that riot.. bike engine, rules it out for me.

meh, not looking forward to a fruitless search for a freestyle

 

[Phaeton]

i'm actually going to view a part built sylva riot kit tomorrow.. not really what i'm after but its cheap, could be an opportunity there..

If I were to go down road only kitcar then the Riot assuming it's got a proper engine & not a bike engine in would be very very high on the list, in fact so high there wouldn't be anything above it. Would be interested in what you define as cheap, although I suspect my version of cheap will be less.

Alan...

er.. yeah, went to have a look at that riot.. bike engine, rules it out for me.

meh, not looking forward to a fruitless search for a freestyle

How much was he looking for it?

Alan...