VOSA Emailed over Tank

[Phaeton]

Copy of email sent to VOSA today.

Good day to yourself, I rang the VOSA helpline with a question over the
new IVA rules regarding the placement of the petrol tank & filler. It is
quite difficult to explain the exact problem so I asked for an email
address so I could forward pictures to try to explain the situation.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/g ... C00234.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/g ... C00235.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/g ... C00431.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/g ... C00416.jpg

These four photos show an existing setup that we used for SVA, the tank
fits behind the seats straggling the brake & gear selector tunnel. The
first just really shows the position of the tank, the second shows a
little more of the filler neck & the third the final resting place of
the filler neck. The fourth is just a reference to the type of vehicle
it becomes.

Do we understand correctly the metal petrol tank will need a full
firewall on all sides with drainage underneath. However the main concern
is will the filler neck in front of the radiator be classed as within
the engine bay? If it is deemed engine bay can anything be done without
major modifications.

Regards

Alan Smith

We will see how long it takes to get an answer & what that comes back as, hopefully we can then take that as a guideline for us all to use.

Alan...

 

[Mini Mad Max]

Yay! Lets hope it's good news !
Thanks alan,
Max

 

[iank]

I'll be interested to see the outcome of this one.
Thanks for taking the lead on this Alan.

 

[jason_l]

Look forward to news on this Alan,

and if it is good news can i have a copy of the email  ;D :

Jason

 

[Angel Boy]

Just a thought, if the filler neck was on the other side of the tank and was roughly where the fire extinguisher type tanks are fitted.  Could this area, not have some sort of firewall box fitted around to create a clear boundary between the tank/filler neck and the engine bay?

Andy

 

[Phaeton]

Andy,

Don't think it really matters which side it comes out of, where it currently comes out a firewall/compartment etc could still be built as the fan is pushing air out not pulling it in, granted I agree it might be easier on the O/S rather than N/S. I personally think the issue maybe they will class anything rear of the rear bulkhead engine bay

Alan...

 

[HolyCount]

I can see anything aft of the bulkhead being engine compartment and anything foward being passenger comp!!  Maybe they are trying, in a roundabout way, to outlaw open frame vehicles !!!!

BTW TKC mag. wrote to VOSA on the mot after regisration question (Do you get the 3 year grace period?) , and got two, contradictory, definitive answers ... yes and no !!!!!  They are writing again -- presumably to get "best out of three" !!!

 

[Phaeton]

Reply received today, not sure that it really helps, but any input for the reply would be appreciated.

Alan...


Hi Alan,

Many thanks for your e-mail enquiry. Apologies for the delay in my response
but the department is very busy at this time.

Thanks for the links, it indeed helped in explaining your predicament.

Under Individual Vehicle Approval (IVA), reference to Fuel Tanks (section
03A) of the M1 IVA Inspection Manual clarifies this issue. Required
Standard 14 states that; "fuel tank filling points must not be located in
the passenger compartment, luggage compartment or within an engine
compartment."

From the photos provided, clearly the filling point in this instance is
located in the engine compartment and as such would not meet with the
current requirements for approval. Unfortunately, the design of the vehicle
does not appear to lend itself to easily overcome this issue. One idea
could be to box in the filler neck to create a separate compartment from
that of the engine bay but how practical this would be to do in reality may
be the issue here.

Looking at the photos, there could possibly be further issues here with the
current arrangement under IVA. In answer to your question on whether a
metal fuel tank will need a full firewall, certainly the fuel tank must be
positioned so that in the event of a leak, fuel could not accumulate or
find a path to the passenger compartment. Also, it must not form part of
the passenger compartment, or other compartment integral with it and the
bulkhead that separates the passengers from the fuel tank must be free from
holes through which any escaped fuel could travel. The tank must be
positioned so as not to be vulnerable to damage from protruding parts or
sharp edges in the event of a front, or more importantly as is the case
here, a rear impact and it must not be positioned near a heat source
(similar in installation to that of a type approved vehicle), so that a
leak could cause a fire hazard. However, I must stress that only an
inspection of the vehicle under IVA would confirm if these were to be of
real concern.

Further information of the IVA requirements can be found in the latest
version of the M1 IVA Inspection Manual which is available as a free
down-load from the transport office web site. Please follow the link below
to access this;

http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/r ... y%2009.pdf



I hope that you have found this information useful.

Kind regards,

Steve

Steve Bardsley
Technical Officer (Approvals)
SVA, PRI, IVA,
Vehicle & Operator Services Agency
Testing & Support Services
Department for Transport
UK

 

[iank]

Well it helps from the point of view that we now know they are counting the whole area behind the bulkhead is counted as engine compartment, which was to be expected really (anything else would be really hard to draft as a rule).

The no holes rule in the passenger side bulkhead when putting the tank behind the seats makes fitting that style of tank very difficult at first thought, as handling the centre 'tunnel' become very hard.to fabricate.

Some hard thinking required methinks.

Of course it may be possible to cheat using an IVA tank and bulkhead that falls off after the test and gets replaced by the 'real' tank, but having a better solution is the way to go.

 

[Phaeton]

Ian, at Stoneleigh I was talking about having a smaller tank, one that just fits behind the passenger seat & doesn't go over the tunnel. Also putting more of a swan neck in the filler & bringing it further out, just tried to do it in Gimp but I'm no artist. Which now works if they are going to allow it to be 'boxed' in to allow separation from the engine compartment.

Anybody any good at photoshop or gimp or any package to move the filler in http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j81/g ... C00431.jpg more to the outside & then fill in behind it, so I can send it back to them.

Alan...

 

[HolyCount]

Hmmm -- nice reply, but basically tells us nothing we didn't know !!!

"Also, it must not form part of the passenger compartment, or other compartment integralwith it "

That latter part of that statement is a worry -- what exactly do they mean ??

 

[jason_l]

Hmmm.

Reply looks like what i was expecting 

I think im going to get a new one made up that will pass IVA first time round rather than use a small one then change it later.

Was thinking of keeping similar design as the behind the seat version. On the passenger side its going to come out further then be not as deep on the drivers side. Where it goes over the centre consol im going to make this higher up so that the centre consol goes under the tank creating the under firewall part. Then custom made firewall over the whole lot. Filler neck will come out the side of the car, meaning filler neck is accessed from side panel.

Give me some time and i will knock up a quick drawing.............. :-*

Something like this...........

Jason

 

[Phaeton]

Can see 2 issues with this Jason, 1st not sure just by raising it above the centre console will actually resolve the issue. There would still have to another firewall to funnel any leakage down to the floor so it could escape. Also unless you're going with harnesses then the seat belt is in the way to come out the side.

Alan...

 

[jason_l]

Can see 2 issues with this Jason, 1st not sure just by raising it above the centre console will actually resolve the issue. There would still have to another firewall to funnel any leakage down to the floor so it could escape. Also unless you're going with harnesses then the seat belt is in the way to come out the side.

Alan...

Sorry probably didn't make myself clear 

If i make a larger cutout part in the middle then the centre consol panel i make up can run the full length of the car to the back, under the tank. Meaning that it creates a firewall keeping it away from passenger compartment, does this make sense???

Im using harnesses but want to use the standard mounting points at the back, i had forgot about these till you mentioned them!  : might have to modify it slightly.....


I had thought about a small cell unit that will fit next to the engine, sort of at the side that i have seen on a few cars. Then making a barrier between the fuel tank and engine. Problem is i think the safest place for the fuel tank is behind the seat incase of impact its the most protected place to keep it!

Jason

 

[iank]

Bit worried about the 'away from heat' bit.  I wasn't planning on using an A series, so unless it's a Zetec-SE I'm going to have the exhaust coming down past the back of the tank.

 

[jason_l]

Bit worried about the 'away from heat' bit.  I wasn't planning on using an A series, so unless it's a Zetec-SE I'm going to have the exhaust coming down past the back of the tank.

Oh bugger. forgot about that also! 

Toyota engine has the Turbo and downpipe just behind the tank 

Think i will be leaving the tank till last and make up some carboard mock tanks and send the pictures to DVLA to see what they have to say.

Gla dyou posted that up ian 

Glad you posted up

 

[Angel Boy]

Alan,
First off thanks for going to the trouble and email the DVLA for us all much appreciated 

This is really going to require some thought as I think what they are looking for is something similar to a mass production car which isn't really going to happen.

mmmmmmmm

Andy

 

[HolyCount]

I briefly discussed this with Jason when we met up .... seriously considering putting the buggy through IVA as a single seater, with the passenger side occupied by a luggage compartment and tank, with filler exiting through the side to the outside of the buggy.  Then re-think afterwards, once I have the MAC in hand 

 

[Phaeton]

My reply

Stephen,

Thank you very much for the reply, it answered some questions but as
these things are. raised others. Just a clarification before I ask
another couple of questions if I may. On the third image ending in 431
what is not shown is an upper bulkhead it had been removed whilst some
work was taking place.

If a smaller fuel tank was fabricated that fitted solely behind the
passenger seat, which then exited through the rear as it does now, but
instead of the filler being quite close to the radiator it was brought
more outboard. A three sided firewall in the passenger compartment would
be easier to make, no holes would be required in there other than in the
floor for leakage. If in the engine compartment a shroud was then
fabricated to shield the filler & to catch any spillage do you believe
this would satisfy the regulations. This could then be repeated on the
drivers side to increase capacity. Another option would be to exit the
filler through the side of the buggy, but this would necessitate having
a hole in the side firewall & approximately two inches of filler neck
passing through the passenger compartment, again would this be
acceptable.

Another question that was asked by a member was the statement that it
must not be positioned near a heat source. In the current set-up using
an A-series engine the exhaust manifold exits at the rear of the engine
completely away from the fuel. However several members are trying to
develop the buggy using different engines which may have exhaust
manifolds on the other side. They will still have firewall & a metal
tank but is there a defined measurement how far they should be from each
other?

Regards

Alan Smith
Moderator www.muddybuggies.com

Alan...

 

[jason_l]

Thanks for continuing the fight against the 'man' Alan 

Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this!