Which engine and which frame ?

[Baloo]

although l already have a project or 2, l still find my self looking at the freestyle buggys that many of you seem to have, l find the idea of a lightwieght rear drive buggy appeals more each time l look at the pics and think about it  ;D
l could well see me biulding something simalar for my next project,  l need to do a bit of learning here to get up to speed,
does the freestyle use a mini front subframe in the rear and does that then limit the engine to an A series or will the k series engine fit in a mini subframe, or will a metro subframe fit in a freestyle with a k series engine in it ?
and if a metro subframe fits or can be made to fit how simalar to an mgf rear subframe is it and could a 1800 engine be used, or even perhaps buy a damaged mgf as a doner and base it on that  ?

 

[RichardG]

Hi, the standard chassis was designed to accept the mini front sub frame with A series engine. If you try to fit anything else you will have to make modifications to the chassis etc. Anything is possible if you have the skilss / time / money but to keep it cheap and simple stick with the A series engine.

Richard

 

[Baloo]

Hi, the standard chassis was designed to accept the mini front sub frame with A series engine. If you try to fit anything else you will have to make modifications to the chassis etc. Anything is possible if you have the skilss / time / money but to keep it cheap and simple stick with the A series engine.

Richard

Hi Richard
          if the freestyle frame/chassis was designed for the mini subframe then l guess that rules out the K series engine fitting  then ?  l have nothing against the A series engine but its getting quite long in the tooth and probally dosent produce a lot of horse power against it weight, l dont know how heavy an A series engine/box is but as its cast iron/steel its going to be quite heavy, l was aiming towards making something as light as possible probally using an  alluminium engine/box,  l dont know whether it cheaper to buy a freestyle and strip it and start again or just to make one from scratch ?

cheers Andy

 

[Phaeton]

Can of worms LOL, As Richard says the original Freestyle was a Mini subframe at the rear, in standard form this only take the A series engine. I currently have a subframe semi cut & braced trying to get a K series to fit. It's proving very difficult, one because of the lack of space I have, physically in my workshop & more importantly physically in the subframe. I'm struggling to get the diff back far enough to be able to connect the driveshafts, It is possible to do it as they fit these engines into Mini's in this subframe, but they normally extend the front which we cannot do. Once installed I will then have the complexity of trying to get the gear linkage to work, it's 2 separate linkages as opposed to the one off the A series.

Another option if you wanted to stay with the A series subframe would be to consider a Nissan Micra engine, these apparently fit a lot easier.

There was another version of the Freestyle called a Tomcat that used Metro parts, this differed in the fact that the rear subframe was of the wet variety. The subframe was bigger & I believe gives you a bit more move to fit a different engine.

As for going straight to K series, ther are currently 3 being built that I know of, Will, Shaggy & a friend of Wullies. They differ in the fact that Will's & Shaggy'd are both using MGF(MGTF) rear subframes Wullies mate is a standard Metro one, converted from wet to coil overs.

My personal choice 'IF' I had the skills would be to make a passenger compartment similar to the Freestyle's & then make a new rear with Mcpherson struts off the donor whatever that might be. I have threatened for long enough to measure how wide the Freestyle is & then armed with a tape measyre go round Tesco's car park looking for something of similar track, Corsa, KA, Fiesta, Micra etc. etc.

There are quite a few posts on here about this, have a search I'm sure you'll get some ideas.

Alan...

 

[RichardG]

Certainly agree that weight saving is by far the cheapest way of getting improved performance and I have gone down that route with my Firefox. If it were me I would try and find a cheap part built freestyle or one that has been used off road only (no SVA), strip it down and use the chassis as the starting point. That way you at least have a solid base to start from. Designing/building a chassis from scratch would be a much bigger project and certainly beyond my skills.

Richard

 

[Baloo]

Can of worms LOL, As Richard says the original Freestyle was a Mini subframe at the rear, in standard form this only take the A series engine. I currently have a subframe semi cut & braced trying to get a K series to fit. It's proving very difficult, one because of the lack of space I have, physically in my workshop & more importantly physically in the subframe. I'm struggling to get the diff back far enough to be able to connect the driveshafts, It is possible to do it as they fit these engines into Mini's in this subframe, but they normally extend the front which we cannot do. Once installed I will then have the complexity of trying to get the gear linkage to work, it's 2 separate linkages as opposed to the one off the A series.

yes l did have a look at a k series engine and came to the conclusion it might be a bit of a squeeze in a mini subframe, presumably grafting a metro subframe in place of the mini one is doable ?
toyota mr2 gear  change cables are easy to use on other vehicles and may suit your k series ?

Another option if you wanted to stay with the A series subframe would be to consider a Nissan Micra engine, these apparently fit a lot easier.

funny that l was just looking at micra auto's on ebay, they look cheap enough but as usual they were all miles away, and besides l am not sure 1000cc would be big enough, l was more thinking 1600-1800cc

There was another version of the Freestyle called a Tomcat that used Metro parts, this differed in the fact that the rear subframe was of the wet variety. The subframe was bigger & I believe gives you a bit more move to fit a different engine.

As for going straight to K series, ther are currently 3 being built that I know of, Will, Shaggy & a friend of Wullies. They differ in the fact that Will's & Shaggy'd are both using MGF(MGTF) rear subframes Wullies mate is a standard Metro one, converted from wet to coil overs.

My personal choice 'IF' I had the skills would be to make a passenger compartment similar to the Freestyle's & then make a new rear with Mcpherson struts off the donor whatever that might be. I have threatened for long enough to measure how wide the Freestyle is & then armed with a tape measyre go round Tesco's car park looking for something of similar track, Corsa, KA, Fiesta, Micra etc. etc.

yes perhaps that is another viable route, not use a subframe at all and use the struts that come with the doner car, that would open up all sorts of vehicles for use in a buggy,  one that springs to mind is the suzuki baleno     l know l know not what most people might choose but l have one parked on the drive that is out of mot and tax  ;D  1600cc  16v  105bhp and best of all its all alliminium construction makes it very light
but l am not sure about size l like the idea of a small buggy and have been looking around 3 cylinder cars ( thats how l came by the subaru justy), l was wondering about the corsa 3 cylinder 12v engine and box make a nice compact buggy, but if l were to biuld the buggy around that engine and it turned out it wasent fast enough l might then struggle to squeeze a 4 cylinder in its place  :


There are quite a few posts on here about this, have a search I'm sure you'll get some ideas.

Alan...




there was a freestyle on ebay that finished a couple of days ago that attracted no bids at £300 is that about the right price for an regestered one ?

Andy



lol the mulit quote thing dident quite work out as intended, but you get the idea

 

[Baloo]

Certainly agree that weight saving is by far the cheapest way of getting improved performance and I have gone down that route with my Firefox. If it were me I would try and find a cheap part built freestyle or one that has been used off road only (no SVA), strip it down and use the chassis as the starting point. That way you at least have a solid base to start from. Designing/building a chassis from scratch would be a much bigger project and certainly beyond my skills.

Richard

hi richard i have this thing about being as light as possible these days, it all started when one of my pals biult this rockcrawler


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Tf1ioLc ... r_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1gAoNhe ... r_embedded

it only has around 100hp from it transverse citroen engine that is turned 90 deg and mounted by the side of the driver, but it has amazing ability due to its very light wieght, under 600kg, l know a freestyle is probally lighter but they dont have 2 beam axles to lug about  
anyway everything l have is on a diet these days

l asked the wrong question at the begining really what l should have called this thread is, how would you design the freestyle if given a blank peice of paper ?
would you choose a rear engined car to start with since it will have the gear change already sorted and things like the hand brake will already be catered for, toyota mr2 for example which are a lot cheaper than minis on ebay,  or mgf etc etc

 

[Mini Mad Max]

My suggestions

Toyota 4age, Vauxhall Redtop, Honda V-tec, Ford Duratec. In my mind the best dohc 4 cylinder engines of around 2litres. They produce about 100bhp per litre which is good, as it means they are not too highly strung.
These are small and compact so you will be able to keep the buggy as short wheelbase as possible (for weight reasons).
I think you should make your own engine mounts/subframe so you can make it light as possible and so you can use desired suspension, instead of being stuck with something like mini suspension. Which is alright, but could be better. Then you can use some nice big brakes, like discs all round, nice and sharp

Hope that inspires you.
Max

 

[jason_l]

I love it, there are so many Freestyles being remade with different engines.

The company doing my conversion wanted me to do a MR2 engine into mine but after they had my buggy for a few months they decided the Toyota Starlet engine im using would be more than adequate  They are using MR2 parts for the engine mounts, gear linkages etc. The starlet and MR2 engines have wires to chnage gears rather than rods so easier to knock something up. Not sure if you have seen mine but have a look through the build thread. Im using the normal mini hubs etc but have just extended the rear for the engine. If i had a endless supply of money i would have built from scratch! I have had a seperate compartment added to house the fuel cell though!

With your skills i can imagine it would be easier to fabricate from scratch. Ask us for advice for certain parts/ what could be improved and you could easily build one hell of a good freestyle styled buggy.

Jason

 

[Baloo]

My suggestions

Toyota 4age, Vauxhall Redtop, Honda V-tec, Ford Duratec. In my mind the best dohc 4 cylinder engines of around 2litres. They produce about 100bhp per litre which is good, as it means they are not too highly strung.
These are small and compact so you will be able to keep the buggy as short wheelbase as possible (for weight reasons).
I think you should make your own engine mounts/subframe so you can make it light as possible and so you can use desired suspension, instead of being stuck with something like mini suspension. Which is alright, but could be better. Then you can use some nice big brakes, like discs all round, nice and sharp

Hope that inspires you.
Max

hi Max
      nice list of engines you have there, the honda v tec probally jumps out and grabs my attention the most, but l dont think l am going to bag one of them for a couple of hundred quid, l have always been a fan of the toyota engines but they are iron blocked adding to the weight significantly,  is the vaxhaull 2.2 ecotek engine ally blocked ? that would be good if it was, as for 100bhp per litre l think thats still to rare to be affordable, l would gladly settle for 80/85 bhp per litre

cheers Andy

 

[jason_l]

Andy,

The engine im using is a Toyota Starlet GT (1994) 1.3T 4EFTE, its 135bhp standard so easily 100bhp per litre and as its 1.3 its relatively light.

I bought a crash damaged car on ebay for £600, sold off bits i didn't need to the value of £450. Meaning im left with engine, gearbox, driveshafts, ecu, wiring, etc etc plus the V5C all for £150  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Jason

 

[Mini Mad Max]

Mmmm, the 2 litre redtop has about 200bhp, and so the 2 litre v-tec, where as i'm not too sure about the toyota and ford. A 1.6 v-tec can still produce 160bhp +.
The 1.6 is still quite expensive, you have to keep an eye out for them in odd places.
But as you say, the v-tec is nice and light. I think a 1.6 v-tec would be adequate in a super light vehicle ;D But i think buying a donor vehicle would be the best idea, as jason says, you can make some money back, I made quite a lot  of profit of one of my minis.
Max

 

[Asbo]

bear in mind i can get most complete/damaged/etc cars for cheap. often,the boss is happy with his storage costs covered. downside is im in glasgow.

 

[Phaeton]

I like speed, used to have track bike happy to slide round corners with one knee on the floor, even used to do it on roundabouts, I've had some quick cars as well. I also know the adage, you can never have enough power, but believe me you don't actually need that much in a Freestyle. They are fun to drive at 60, interesting at 65, 70 they get very interesting, anything above 80 on anything but a billiard table is suicidal. I think it would be good to see a 100bhp Freestyle but anything more will be a waste of time. I can't see you being able to put the power down, from a starting start you'll just spin the wheels up & too much power mid corner will see you going through the hedge backwards.

Please by all means build these 150bhp buggies, but my stance is a nice modern 5 speed alloy engine pumping out 75-100bhp is the way to go. If a nice 1.3 Micra comes my way, that's what I'l do.

Alan.../font]

 

[Baloo]

Andy,

The engine im using is a Toyota Starlet GT (1994) 1.3T 4EFTE, its 135bhp standard so easily 100bhp per litre and as its 1.3 its relatively light.

I bought a crash damaged car on ebay for £600, sold off bits i didn't need to the value of £450. Meaning im left with engine, gearbox, driveshafts, ecu, wiring, etc etc plus the V5C all for £150  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Jason

hi Jason
  £150 for a toyota starlet gt engine is indeed a bargin, if l could get one for that price  thats the way l would be heading  ;D

Max
  a v tec would be the iceing on the cake but l dont think l am going to find one l can afford 

 

[Baloo]

I like speed, used to have track bike happy to slide round corners with one knee on the floor, even used to do it on roundabouts, I've had some quick cars as well. I also know the adage, you can never have enough power, but believe me you don't actually need that much in a Freestyle. They are fun to drive at 60, interesting at 65, 70 they get very interesting, anything above 80 on anything but a billiard table is suicidal. I think it would be good to see a 100bhp Freestyle but anything more will be a waste of time. I can't see you being able to put the power down, from a starting start you'll just spin the wheels up & too much power mid corner will see you going through the hedge backwards.

Please by all means build these 150bhp buggies, but my stance is a nice modern 5 speed alloy engine pumping out 75-100bhp is the way to go. If a nice 1.3 Micra comes my way, that's what I'l do.

Alan.../font]

l think we are reading from the same book here Alan 100bhp sounds about right to me as well, given that l wont want to regester it for road use and will only be using it in a  field  , sounds like l should hang on to my suzuki baleno rather than give it to the scrap man then ;D

 

[Baloo]

l am still pondering this, l have been looking at mgf's on ebay and wondering if that is the way to go ? use the rear subframe, suspension engine/box etc and either biuld a new frame or modify an exsisting one ?
does any one have any close up pics of how the front suspension is arranged on a freestyle ?
is that the best way to go  or would making wishbones with a coilover shock be a better way ?

anyone know of a cheap unfinished freestyle anywhere for sale, dosent need to have an engine/box or even the rear subframe  ?

there was one on ebay last week, finished with no bids, wish l had bid now :

Andy

 

[boger123]

hi baloo ive bein reading some of your questions and looking at your projects and i reckon you should start completely from scratch as clearly you have got the skills and nolage to make one 100 times better than the free style  and if you do buy a free style frame you will be just waisting your money as by the time you have modified it to your standards there will be nothing left. good luck ill look forward to seeing some pic when you start it 

 

[wurzell]

When I built my Frame (to use in Classic Trialling), decided to follow normal Race/Rally practice, and build it as light as possible....
Found that having that great ugly 'A' Series lump hanging in the back actually was of great benefit, as all the weight was right where you needed it, over the driven wheels.....
However, cos it's so light on the steering front end, it does tend to "push on"/understeer on the really tight stuff, usually just at the wrong moment!
So I would say, consider the 'A' Series option if you want to get up the really steep stuff, as its weight/position HELPS you succeed.
Also, 100 bhp from this unit is easily achievable, though not neccessarily cheap...
Agree with Phaeton, that you do NOT need huge power or state of the art engine and gearbox combinations to have a lot of fun, even a Mini 998 is a big laff..........

 

[Baloo]

hi baloo ive bein reading some of your questions and looking at your projects and i reckon you should start completely from scratch as clearly you have got the skills and nolage to make one 100 times better than the free style  and if you do buy a free style frame you will be just waisting your money as by the time you have modified it to your standards there will be nothing left. good luck ill look forward to seeing some pic when you start it 

thank you boger,
  l always find it hard starting from scratch its so much easier if you have something to copy/look at if even none of the orginals designs make it over to the copy, it gives ideas how to do or not do something, but l take your point l might not use anything of a freestyle at all and then it would be a waste of money ,  going to do some more thinking on this one